“How far would you go to help a friend, who is unwilling to help themselves?”

Kolby, Jeremy, and Ashley discuss the ethics in the short story, “Patchouli Lost” available to download on Amazon.

Patchouli Lost (Transcript) (By Transcriptions Fast)

Kolby: Hello, and welcome to After Dinner Conversation. After Dinner Conversations is a collection of short stories across genres meant to drive out deeper conversations. Download After Dinner Conversations short stories including the one’s we are discussing here today—hello kitten – at Afterdinnerconversation.com or read them on your readers, tablet, e-reader from amazon, apple, or wherever E-books are sold. I am the co-host Kolby. This is my co-host Jeremy as well as my co-host Ashley. We are today taping our first episode in, and I got it wrong before, it’s not La Gatteria, it’s La Gatarria, which means crazy cat lady. So we’re going to have cats all over us today, which is kind of the point, which is super fun. And today were talking about the first story that we’re doing- The Patchouli Lost. Jeremy you want to talk about that? Or give us the general idea of the story for those that haven’t read it?

Jeremy: The general idea of the story, from the point of view from our protagonist who is talking to a girl in an abusive relationship…

Kolby: I don’t even know; does he have a name? I’m not even sure.

Jeremy: The Narrator.

Kolby: So, he’s like Fight Club, he’s just the narrator.

Jeremy: And how that interaction goes with a girl who is in an abusive relationship.

Kolby: Ok, fair enough, that’s very brief. Yea, that works.

Ashley: To the point. You should’ve read it already, if you haven’t read it, again check out amazon, those other e-readers, read it, hit pause on this, read it, then come back.

Kolby: This will work better if you’ve read the story otherwise, you’re just going to hear us talking about a book you’ve essentially never read. But if you haven’t, that’s okay too. You’ll get the gist of it as we talk. So, I’m curious, what did you guys think? What likes, dislike, things that you found interesting?

(silence)

Kolby: That’s it, okay. We’ll go with that.

(laughter)

Kolby: I can start. So one of the things I found interested is the narrator continually pushes… it’s a very conversational, like, here’s why… it’s a very low key thing for a serious conversation, and it’s meant to make the narrator sound more sympathetic, or I don’t know, something… something like approachable or sympathetic. But when you dig into it, I’m not sure the narrator is that great of a person.

Jeremy: Exactly, and it’s interesting because the narrator approaches the story almost from a point of view like an anthropologist. He’s looking at it and asks the question “I’ve never met people this, in an abusive relationship, so tell me about it?”, which is a little sociopathic.

(laughter)

Kolby: Yeah, I think that’s exactly the word for it. So, for those that haven’t caught up, I’m going to help Jeremy a little bit with the story. So basically, the story is, this woman Patchouli is what she’s called in the story, she calls the narrator and says basically “hey, I’m locked in the bathroom because my boyfriend/ex-boyfriend is like banging on the door and trying to beat me up.” The narrator says “I’ll come over.” Luckily, I guess for the narrator, the boyfriend isn’t there anymore otherwise it’d be a very different story. And then the narrator…

(crash sound in background)

Kolby: There’s going to be cat noises everywhere, it’s going to be awesome… takes Patchouli under his wing to try and take care of her but under conditions. The conditions are you really can’t interact with this person anymore, you have to delete his cellphone number, block his cellphone number.

Jeremy: The crux of the story is that he asked her to block his number, and that sets up the conflict.

Kolby: He’s unwilling to help her once she’s unwilling to block his number. The narrator isn’t willing to help her anymore.

Ashley: To break it down even a little bit further, you have this super complex relationship with this girl and her boyfriend. And obviously she’s keeps coming back to him and it’s a complicated situation. And the narrator comes about it very simply. “I’m coming to get you”- simple. “We’re going to get ice cream”- simple. “I’m asking you questions that have straight-up answers, give be answers”- simple. But it’s this super, complex, emotional and psychological issue this girl is having, and the narrator comes about it with simple little, check-boxes, like “ok, get you out of the situation, lets go get ice cream, talk to me about it, delete his phone number”. And it’s not that easy.

Kolby: It’s like an engineer’s view on it.

Ashley: Exactly.

Jeremy: Let’s analyze the issue, here’s a solution.

Kolby: And if you’re unwilling to do that solution, I’m unwilling to help you.

Jeremy: Right, yep, which again is very sociopathic. Again, the very interesting subtext of the story is the narrator basically saying if you want an abusive relationship, I can do that for you or I can be controlling for you, for Patchouli.

Kolby: Just swapping out one person for another.

Jeremy: That’s what he’s offering her and that’s why she rejects it.

Ashley: One of the interesting notes I made was exactly that. The narrator in the very first paragraph, him talking about her was a very obsessive way of talking about her. The way that she smelled, the way she looked, so obviously he has an obsession with her.

Kolby: It’s obviously not a friendship sort of thing, right? You don’t mention those things if it’s just a person.

Ashley: And then later on, he is just like the clique boyfriend. When she tells him “no don’t come over here”, and he disobeys her orders. He comes over to get her anyway. And then later on too, again it was a demand… “I do however have a request, consider it payment for services rendered”. So again, he’s also putting demands on her which is just like what the boyfriend would do. And then he also doesn’t respect her opinion because she tried to tell him why she won’t block his number after he threated suicide, “it’s my right from my perspective to do that.” And he doesn’t respect her opinion, he’s like “no, you need to do it my way.” And then he won’t even let her speak. In one of the very end of the story, she starts to respond but I interrupt her.

Kolby: So, it’s swapping out one controlling relationship for another.

Ashley: Exactly.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Kolby: So, it’s like a softer kind of control. Like abusive but in a different kind of abusive way.

Ashley: Correct. Those were the parts that I…

Jeremy: More of just emotionally abusive as opposed to physically abusive.

Ashley: But he comes across as a nice guy, let me take you to ice-cream, I’ll save you.

Kolby: But he’s also the narrator, right? So, his intention…

Jeremy: An unreliable narrator.

Kolby: Yeah, I think that’s the theme of every story, right? Is an unreliable narrator. Yeah. So, I guess one of the things, we were talking about some questions with this, so the first one is… I feel bad for just reading off a piece of paper but it’s the easiest way to do it…

Ashley: You can find these questions too at the end of the stories. There’s a link for these set of questions that we’ll be talking about. And at the end of this podcast, chime in your two cents too. Write in, “hey..”

Kolby: Yeah, write in the comments.

Ashley: Yeah, please, add in your two cents into everything.

Kolby: Write in, “yeah, you guys were wrong. This is what you should’ve done. He should’ve hit her with a brick.” Yeah…

(laughter)

Ashley: No.

Kolby: I meant hit him with a brick.

(laughter)

Ashley: Oh okay.

Kolby: So, the question from the narrator is that real friends keep their word. Is that true? I feel like, I’m kinda yes and no on that.

Jeremy: The questions has complicated answers. Ideally no. Personally I’ve always felt we have a certain amount of social capital within friends and acquaintances. And the more you violate a person’s trust, the more they push you out of their lives.

Kolby: What do you mean by that? I need a better explanation.

Jeremy: The more you violate a friend’s trust.

Kolby: Like example

Jeremy: Like example: people who always make up stories, always one up you…

Kolby: OH! Yeah yeah yeah.

Jeremy: You’re like “we’ll, I just did this.”

Kolby: Yeah, like “I just skydived with supermodels.”

Jeremy: And that’s a violation of the social capital, of us being friends and being honest and open with each other. And the more you violate that, the more people push you out of their lives.

Kolby: Because they don’t want that kind of interactions.

Jeremy: They don’t want that negative energy, is a way to put it. So, the narrator here is taking a pretty drastic measure in what appears to be a first infraction.

Kolby: So, he’s seeing it as binary, seeing it as black and white. If you do A, B happens every time. As opposed to being like, look, “I wish you didn’t but you give friends a chance.”

Jeremy: Exactly. And he’s not being a friend here because he’s not giving her a chance.

Ashley: My big thing on that too is can you be a true friend to someone and break your word to them. Well, it wasn’t even her idea.

Kolby: It was his idea and he forced it one her.

Ashley: Exactly.

Kolby: She was in a weakened place to even say no.

Ashley: Exactly, so it’s like, do true friends even do those ultimatums to one another? Like, I get it there’s a part where you need to set your own boundary for what you’re willing and unwilling to deal with from someone.

Kolby: Because you don’t want to get wound up someone else’s everything.

Ashley: Exactly. But she wasn’t even a willing participant. She had to repeat it several times. “you will block his number, promise me, you will block his number, promise me.”

Kolby: That’s just a Fight Club reference, sure it is, say it three times.

(laughter)

Kolby: I agree, I feel like it is too black and white, right? I wonder, we’ve all been in that situation where someone drags us into their problem. Like, they call the first time and say “oh, my boyfriend’s drunk,” or “my girlfriend is, ya know, whatever”… and you’re like, “ya, of course I want to help you.” And then a day later you get another phone call. And a day later you get another phone call. And eventually you’re like, “you know man, I’ve got a life too. I’ve got my own issues. And I can’t be you’re all day support network.”

Jeremy: And in the frame of the story it demonstrates what the authors trying to demonstrate about this relationship and about that standing out moral ground. It’s a slice of this relationship. It’s more of a metaphor for all of these interactions to instead of how this will really play our inner life. Artistic license.

Kolby: Yeah, I uh, yeah I don’t disagree.

Ashley: Very well spoken.

Kolby: I think everyone’s data in that situation where the excellent into somebody else’s drama but I feel like the narrator in this case is so black and white and unforgiving that you’re like, “dude, you’re being a mean person”. OK, so next one. Is that the narrator being ethical totally by cutting off all communication with Patchouli? Is he doing in to help her? Or to help himself?

Jeremy: I think being true to his own moral code that doesn’t mean it’s ethical

Kolby: Yes, I don’t necessarily disagree

Ashley: The other thing I want to know is when did their relationship start? Obviously, he has this infatuation with her. There’s that moment when they are, I don’t want to say intimate, but when they bumped heads and they rubbed noses together. Like, okay, so they’re close enough to be that close of personal space?

Kolby: I given a lot of foot massages to a lot of people then

(Laughter)

Kolby: None of them met nothing. That’s exactly what that is, right?

Ashley: So again, how close is their relationship? And is he needing to draw a line because her drama is just too overwhelming for him, or does he have real emotions for her? Like really, really care for her on a deeper level?

Kolby: I think that’s more the point, right?

Ashley: Is it a crush on her? Is it not? So, it’s like you have to protect yourself if the person is not interested or you just, if it’s truly just a friend, you can’t watch them go down that rabbit hole.

Kolby: I feel like actually, maybe, as a friend, it was a wrong choice, but as someone he was romantically interested in… because you never want to see the person you have a crush on, not only are you not with me but you’re also with a horrible person. So, I don’t know, I understand you’re point though.

Ashley: So, I think he did it for both reasons. Because he both wanted to help her out. He’s been there with her, so now she just needs to stand up on her own 2 feet. And then also to help himself. I think he did it for both reasons.

Kolby: Some new fault him for this? You fault the narrator for his?

Ashley: For cutting her out?

Kolby: Yeah?

Ashley: No, um..

Kolby: It’s almost douche… like almost 40% douche

Jeremy: 80%

Kolby: 80% douche…

Ashley: Yeah

Jeremy: He really that puts his of motives into focus. You can really tell…

Kolby: He has motives.

Jeremy: He has motives because she’s not living up to his expectations of her. He’s just cutting her off.

Ashley: I’d like to bring into the other additional thing. He mentions he’s never been in this situation before where he gets to be the hero. When I get to go and save you. Remember? He says “Thank you, thank you for giving me this opportunity to do the right thing.” So, is he using her? Have…

Kolby: To perpetuate this internal version of himself, right? “This is who I see myself as and you’re screwing it up by not breaking it off. I’ve got a story in my head and by you not breaking it off with this abusive guy you’re not continuing the story in my head about being a hero. And therefor I’m out.”

Ashley: “My methods of helping you didn’t help, so now I see myself as a failure.”

Jeremy: Right

Ashley: Because he went into that whole thing. “Thank you for that, thank you for that opportunity,” then bam- throws in the demand to seal the deal that what I did was right.

Kolby: I feel like had… I think you’re right… I agree… if it had been a swap out it would’ve just swapped out one abusive relationship for another. Maybe it would’ve stayed a relationship but it doesn’t feel like it.

Jeremy: It doesn’t feel like it. It wasn’t his goal.

Kolby: If Patchouli came back to the narrator after another round of abuse, do you think the narrator would again support her? Do you think he should?

Ashley: I for sure think he would.

Jeremy: I think he would, because he kept reaching out. The narrator clearly says, “Just trying to be social, I don’t know why, but yes”

Ashley: Who doesn’t like that feeling like they’re helping somebody too? Like here’s a lost cause, okay it’s been a little bit of a time, let me try and help you again. I feel like he derives some sort of personal satisfaction from trying to help this person, that he obviously deeply cares about. So, I definitely think he’d come back to her to try and solve her issues again and maybe even put on harsher demands? Who knows?

Kolby: It’s interesting though because “I’m cutting you off because you won’t do what I say. But if you come back a second time, I’ll let you back in a second time”, which kinda goes against the first part, right? It’s weird, I’ll continue to interact with you but only in the ways that I demand you interact with me. Every time you knock on the door, so to speak, I’ll continue to let you in on my terms, but always on my terms.

Ashley: Do you think he should let her back in?

Kolby: I think if you want to be a decent human being, you’d have too.

Ashley: But knowing his personality, is he going to have certain regulations for that relationship?

Kolby: I think it’s always.

Jeremy: I think that’s why she’s not contacted him again. She recognizes this.

Kolby: Yeah. Because it’s always an interaction on his terms or nothing at all. It’s funny because there’s an abusive guy in this story, but the narrator sounds like the worst person in the story.

Ashley: Well they parallel each other. It’s just a different way of demands, a different way of mentally screwing, of mental manipulation. Screwing the other person over, thinking you’re the nice guy, and then once you feel like you’ve gained their trust, let me slip in another demand, let slip in another regulation for our relationship, rules, laws.

Kolby: “Wear this, you’d look good in it.”

Ashley: Yeah, exactly.

Kolby: You know what this reminds me of a little bit? I’ve been thinking about it a little bit. Is that, what’s the movie, with the robot that breaks free and kills the guy in the compound?

Ashley: Oh.. ugh..

Kolby: We watched it.

Jeremy: Ex-machina.

Kolby: Ex-Machina. Yeah. And I feel like it’s a little like that in that the creator views his machine as an object but the savior guy that also gets trapped in there, also views her as an object. But one views her as a physical machine object, and one views her as a feminine object. And so, you end up with two versions of the same objectification. Just one feels softer than the other. And I feel like it’s the same with these two characters.

Jeremy: One recognizes her humanity, or her, not humanity but…

Kolby: Version of humanity, or whatever, her emulation of humanity.

Jeremy: Right.

Kolby: Right. But it’s still objectifies her for it.

Jeremy: yes

Kolby: So, you end up with not a good guy and a bad guy in that movie. You end up with two people that are both treated a person, conceptually, as an object. And I feel like it’s the same thing here where you’ve got a harder and softer version of the same bad-ness. Does the narrator have an ethical obligation to call the police? I think probably has a legal obligation, but maybe not an ethical obligation.

Jeremy: Probably, yes.

Ashley: So, the fact that she had cell phone service and she’s locked in her bathroom and she picks up the call for him.

Jeremy: She’s not calling the cops.

Ashley: She’s not calling the cops.

Kolby: This is within the sphere of appropriate amount of crazy-town.

Ashley: Yeah.

Kolby: It hasn’t left the like…

Jeremy: Right and within the story there is no physical abuse.

Ashley: That’ve seen or we’ve witnessed.

Kolby: Yeah, if she had a black eye and bloody nose, now you’ve got a very different story. Yeah, I don’t know. So, here’s the thing, if the narrator just called the police, he would have both been absolved from responsibility at least and have done something pro-active. But instead he’s like, “no you’re not interacting with me in my way so I’m not going to help you, I’m not going to do anything.” Which also leads us up to our last one… is the narrator a good person?

Ashley: Oh, we forgot question #4 too.

Kolby: There’s a cat tail in the way. Sorry.

(Laughter)

Ashley: Is Patchouli in any way responsible if she stops talking to cliché…

Kolby: And cliché kills himself. Because in the thing, the reason she takes his phone call is he says if you don’t pick up the phone, I’m going to kill myself. I say good riddance. I gotta be honest. If the dude… if an abusive guy is going to kill himself because he doesn’t get to abuse you anymore, I’m just like, let’s just call that a win for humanity.

Jeremy: She does not have an obligation at all.

Kolby: I agree. Then why does she do it? Because she still likes him? Because she still thinks oh, maybe he’ll be different this time?

Ashley: Okay, so just like that narrator wanted to feel good about himself for helping that girl, she derives the same sense of self…

Kolby: So, she wants to interact with him but on her terms?

Jeremy: She wants to help him. A type of co-dependency

Ashley: More of the terms of, who doesn’t like to feel like a hero? Who doesn’t like to feel like they helped save someone?

Kolby: Wait a minute, so are you saying that the abused person is just like the narrator, which is just like the abusive boyfriend.

Ashley: I’m just saying though, she wanted to feel like she made an impact, helped save someone’s life just like the narrator tried to save her and she’s doing the same thing to cliché.

Jeremy: I wish I did a little more research on abusive relationships, if there is an element of co-dependency and abusive relationships. It’s a way to control somebody to allow them to feel like they’re helping you.

Kolby: Yeah, I don’t think the guy is really going to kill himself. I think it’s going to be one of those calls for help

Jeremy: It’s not even a call for help. It’s just a bluff.

Kolby: Yeah, I agree. That’s like the last card he’s got to play.

Ashley: And if she doesn’t pick up on it, he’ll go pry on some other girl.

Kolby: And I feel bad for her. I feel like the only way she gets out of it is he gets shiny keyed by some other girl that he focuses his life’s attention on, right. Because I don’t think he ever goes away, he just has to eventually find someone else to obsess over and abuse.

Ashley: Now questions 6.

Kolby: Hello kitty. Is the narrator a good person? I think it’s percentages. That’s the way I was thinking of it. Like, the abusive guy is like 100% and horrible. Like, the narrator….

Ashley: Well, who’s to say? We didn’t really hear a lot about cliché. Like, we did make these generalizations.

Jeremy: He’s not 100% horrible either.

Kolby: You don’t think the abusive guy is?

Jeremy: Not 100%. We don’t know him.

Kolby: Are you saying that maybe she was asking for it?

Jeremy: No

Ashley: No no.

Kolby: I don’t think that’s the way you want to go with this.

Jeremy: I’m just saying, from what we’re presented…

Kolby: We’re only getting it from a guy’s perspective, that is in love with her anyway.

Jeremy: It’s an unreliable narrator.

Kolby: It’s a double unreliable narrator.

Ashley: All we get are these assumptions. That his dad makes a certain amount of money, what kind of car does he drive, let me guess, he’s supposed to take medication. And it’s like, hold on, those are all assumptions. We haven’t even met cliché.

Kolby: It’s second step removed un-reliable narration. So, we don’t know what he is, but our hunch is not good.

Jeremy: Right.

Kolby: And the narrator?

Jeremy: Again, it probably depends on his motivation. If you look at this from his point of view that he is also looking to control Patchouli, definitely no. if he really is coming from an altruistic place and just trying to help, he’s still not being supportive…

Kolby: Here’s the one thing I wonder about though… and I’m just going to play, there’s this phrase devil’s advocate, which I think is a stupid phrase because it’s not like the devil needs an advocate. He’s doing fine on his own.

Jeremy: He’s a lawyer anyway.

Kolby: Yeah, he’s a lawyer anyway. Good point. The thing I wonder though is… say I get a flat on the side of the road and somebody comes to help me change my flat. Because they were hoping to get a $20 tip or somebody helped them out of a jam and they’re required to pay it forward, or something like that. At the end of the day, my flat got fixed. And so, I think there’s a motivational side of it that you judge but there’s also a results side of it as well. Sure, you might have been fixing my flat for all the wrong reasons, but the flat is fixed. So how do you separate those two in the case of the narrator. The narrator arguably has not great motivations, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t supportive when a person needed support—in the limited way he was able too.

Ashley: And the manipulative way he was able too.

Kolby: And in the manipulative way he was able too. Yeah, that’s the issue right.

Ashley: Now in the grand scheme of things through, the narrator did go and help her.

Kolby: At the potential risk of getting a beat down.

Ashley: Exactly. He slept on her steps.

Kolby: Waited. Without telling her he did.

Jeremy: A little stocker-ish

Ashley: He did try to cheer her up with ice-cream, but then he immediately after giving her ice cream went deep dive questions that she was obviously uncomfortable for. So, he tries and it just goes side-ways. And then he tries and it just goes weird-sideways. I think with good intentions but…

Kolby: It’s within the weird psychosis framework going on here.

Ashley: A little bit. Or that deep crush where you’re just like, ugggh… just can’t quite control his emotions because he’s getting to the tipping point of wanting to control her as well.

Kolby: Yea, I know! You’re like I’m so excited about this!

Ashley: By the way, all the cats you see here are up for adoption.

Kolby: Yeah, including the one licking its butt.

Ashley: So, if you’re in Tempe, Arizona, come on by. This little guy is up for adoption too.

Kolby: Yeah, there’s all cats everywhere. This is just the one who’s bonded with us today.

Ashley: We might take this one home with us today after. I mean, c’mon, look at that face!

Jeremy: I feel like the narrator is pretty true to his own code, even though I again…

Kolby: Yes, that’s an interesting thing as well… is this assumption that ethical is following a set of universal ethics. And I think ethical can also mean the phrase consistent within your personal ethics. Like, do you change your ethics when it helps or hurts you, or are they consistent in whatever they happen to be.

Jeremy: Right.

Kolby: Okay, so there’s a closing and I don’t know yet, I haven’t memorized it yet, and because there’s a cat on it.

Ashley: No, not that one.

Kolby: No, you took the closing sheet.

Ashley: Oh, Sorry.

Kolby: Where’d the closing sheet go. We’re very prepared.

Ashley: You used it.

Kolby: It’s gone. You can’t blame the cat

Ashley: You didn’t memorize your own closing.

Kolby: I didn’t memorize my own closing. Yeah. It was here but at any rate, you’re listening to After Dinner Conversation. We just got done talking about Patchouli lost. That short story is available for download on kindle apps, which is everything now, everything takes a kindle app whether it’s a kindle, e-reader, or your phone or computer. You can download it on amazon.com. I think it’s free right now. And our story next week, will be… what is it?

Ashley: My Fellow Americans.

Kolby: My Fellow Immortal Americans, about the president giving a very strange speech where, its like a sci-fi thing, where time is the currency and money is irrelevant now. So, there’s this question of can people be immortal and can you be rich enough to live forever. So, tune in next week to watch that. Definitely try and read it ahead of time before you watch the one next week. It is also available on amazon, and we’ll be back next week at La Gattara in Tempe, Arizona. Thank you.