E15. "Ruddy Apes And Cannibals" - If a civilized cannibal invited you to dinner, would you attend?
“If a civilized cannibal invited you to dinner, would you attend?”
Kolby, Jeremy, and Ashley discuss the ethics and choices in the alternative history short story "Ruddy Apes And Cannibals" by Shikhandin. Subscribe.
Transcription Provided by Transcriptions Fast
Ruddy Apes and Cannibals
by Shikhandin
(music)
Kolby: Hi, you’re listening to After Dinner Conversation, short stories for long discussions. What that means is we get short stories, we select those short stories, and then we discuss them, specifically about the ethics and the morality of the choices the characters and the situations put us in. Why did you do this? What makes you do this? What makes us good people? What’s the nature of truth? Goodness? All of that sort of stuff. And hopefully we’ll all better, smarter people for it, and learn a little bit about why we think the way we think. So, thank you for listening.
(music)
Kolby: Hi, and welcome back once again to After Dinner Conversation where we have short stories, where we discuss them and talk about the morality and ethics of what’ going on in the short stories that are published on our website, AfterDinnerConversation.com and/or on Amazon, there’s lot of places you can get them. I’m your co-host Kolby, here with co-host Jeremy.
Jeremy: Hi.
Kolby: And co-host Ashley.
Ashley: Hello.
Kolby: And we are once again at La Gattara cat café where they, that’s why I’m a little distracted right now, there are 2 cats on our table. If you’re watching the YouTube video you can see that and it’s a white one with brown, and there’s a brown one. You notice they never talk about the type, the species of cat like they do with dog?
Ashley: Like brown one, black one.
Kolby: Right, because it’s not like this is the smart cat or this is a cat that is a water cat.
(laughter)
Ashley: This is the golden retriever, he retrieves. No, this is just a freaking cat. A cat does what cats do.
Jeremy: A house cat.
Kolby: What kind of cat is it? It chases the laser pointer. It poos in the litterbox. At any rate, you can come here and you can get a cat. And they’ve been great hosts for us for our, now, 15th episode, and they’ve just been amazing. If you’re in Tempe Arizona ever, definitely come by. For $10 you can have a coffee and hang out with cats, and for a little bit more, you can bring one home with you. It’s a way to kind of test-drive the cats.
Ashley: Or if you can’t have a cat, but want to get your cat fix in.
Kolby: Also, Jeremy had one in our last thing and I forgot to mention it, we made Jeremy a special shirt that says, “So I was researching that.” I made one for myself, I’m not wearing his shirt. And in the process of doing it, I was like “Hey, we should sell these. That’s like a thing.” So, if you want to buy a After Dinner Conversation shirt, you can do that. Just go to our website and there’s a spot on there where you can buy merchandise now. I’m sure our sales will be in the ones.
(laughter)
Kolby: Maybe the twos? But whatever. My mom will buy one. It’ll be awesome. Feel free to buy one. They’re not nasty shirts, they’re not cotton shirts or like the tri-blend polyester ones.
Ashley: Buy the shift, buy one for all of your friends, read one of these stories, have a discussion and then watch the podcast. I’m just saying. And then send us a picture or video of it, and you will get a free copy of our book that is out or should be out.
Kolby: It will be out by now for sure. After Dinner Conversation Season 1 will be out on Amazon for download or for a paper copy. It’ll have stories, 25 of the best stories that we’ve done, as well as the questions that go with them. There are even children’s stories in there if you want to have some children’s stories. It’s pretty rock star. You don’t pet the cat that way, you’ll get scratched. And so, let’s do our first story. Rudy…
Jeremy: Ruddy Apes and the Cannibals.
Kolby: I’ll just leave it to you man. You do it Jeremy.
Jeremy: By Shikhandin
Kolby: Okay, we don’t know how to pronounce it. It’s not his real name anyways, it’s his pen name.
Jeremy: Non de plume. Alright, so this is a familiar story at first. It’s the story of English explorers discovering an island paradise and the inevitable conflict that arises because of their clash of cultures.
Kolby: I hate the word discovered. It implies that people weren’t there before you bumped into them.
Jeremy: Exactly.
Kolby: Discovered America? No, America had people, you just didn’t know they were there. Sorry. It’s just my little pet peeve, but I understand what you meant.
Jeremy: In this particularly story, the island is very remote and appears to be discovered in the 1940s or 50s. The explores, or ruddy apes in this case, discover an island of civilized cannibals. Much of the story is spent describing the cannibals and their seemingly utopian society. No dogmatic religion, responsible use of natural resources and nuclear energy, compulsory education, advanced medicine, a successful space program, and happy and progressive culture, no overpopulation.
Kolby: That’s like utopia.
Jeremy: I know, I did say, they’re seemingly utopian society.
Kolby: Oh, sorry.
(laughter)
Kolby: I got distracted.
Ashley: Distracted by a cat.
Kolby: Sorry. I’m listening. Focus. Focus. Focus.
Jeremy: Some time is also spent discussion how their cannibalism works in that it’s consensual. There are humans who are raised for eating, and they’re revered individuals who decide when they want to be eaten. Regular citizens as well can offer themselves, which is seen as a great honor for both them and the people eating them.
Kolby: This is the opposite of the story we had way back when. When they eat the fat kid.
Jeremy: “This I Do For You”.
Kolby: “This I Do For You”. Yeah, where…
Jeremy: The fat kid.
(laughter)
Kolby: They, like, they fatten the kid up to ginormous in case there’s a famine.
Ashley: He wasn’t revered, he was like “Oh, we don’t talk about you.”
Jeremy: Yeah, keep him in a room.
Kolby: This is not like that. That’s a good call.
Jeremy: Because cannibals are so content in this utopian society, they don’t see the ruddy apes as a threat in any way. And when they’re cannibalism is discovered the ruddy apes turn hostile and want to civilize the cannibals. The result of this is a trial where they ruddy apes bring in lots of vehicles and machines to build a big fort on the cannibal’s island where they can hold a trial. This trial consists of the ruddy apes lording over the cannibals and trying to convince them that their cannibalism is wrong. The crux of this is the discussion over how the cannibals believe that eating fellow humans is an act inspired by love and respect for others and that the hopes, dreams, loves, ideas, and deeds of all people live on after their body has died. So, at the end of this trial, the cannibals tell the ruddy apes to leave the island, like, “We’re done with you.”
Kolby: The trial doesn’t go well.
Jeremy: The trial doesn’t go well. And the cannibals tell the ruddy apes, “It’s time for you guys to leave. We’re done with you.” So, the ruddy apes pack up all their stuff and go, and as soon as they’re off the island, they explode the atomic bombs that they’ve hidden on the island, destroying the island.
Kolby: By the way, the cannibals are so technologically advanced, they could have wiped out everybody at any time.
Jeremy: They were like, “We’re just going to teleport them away.”
Kolby: But they’re so civilized, they choose not to.
Jeremy: Right, they don’t believe in just indiscriminate killing.
Kolby: And it’s the non-cannibals that do believe in the indiscriminate killing.
Ashley: They’re super-duper advanced, they explore the stars, the go to other plants, they’re space nerds.
Kolby: Yeah.
Ashley: They’re like, super smart. Yet, they eat themselves, well, people.
Kolby: Each other.
Jeremy: Most of the cannibals perish, but the narrator promises that many survived and are living among us or living out in space.
Kolby: Okay. You have some thoughts as you read it?
Jeremy: Yeah, it’s an interesting story.
Kolby: Okay.
Jeremy: I do like the cannibals are presented very much as the civilized culture in this story. The ruddy apes, while they do have advanced, some advanced technology, but they’re very war faring and they’re even presented in very much a way that they sail around and any cultures they run into, they appropriate and take all their stuff.
Kolby: In my mind, they were just stand ins for British colonizers.
Jeremy: Absolutely.
Kolby: They call them ruddy apes, but it could just be British Colonizers and Cannibals, could have been the name of the story.
Jeremy: Yeah. And that’s what I said, it feels very similar in that what are the stories? You know which ones I mean?
Kolby: I really don’t.
(laughter)
Kolby: You pull books out of your butt, that I’m just like, “Man, nobody read that book but you and the dude’s mom.”
Jeremy: The Bounty.
Kolby: Okay. That one I have read.
Jeremy: But I feel like there’s a series of master and commander, and even Pirates of the Caribbean. All these English explorers…
Kolby: Finding cannibals. Finding indigenous people.
Ashley: So, in this story, the theory is there’s 2 different types of people and they live amongst themselves in a way. They end up mixing at the end?
Kolby: Something like that.
Ashley: So, it’s like you have this one super civilized society and this other elementary, newer-ish one.
(Cat hisses)
Ashley: Whoa, unhappy kitty. Do not snuggle near me. That’s what that one said to the other one. The beginning paragraph is very interesting. It’s like, “Does the rain remember vapor? Does vapor remember rain? Yet both were the other in their past lives. If you told their stories to each other, would they even comprehend? And does that mean their stories aren’t necessary unimportant or implausible?” So, it’s like, talking to a primitive human to a today human, and if you’d swap stories, would you believe one truly was the other? We’re the same?
Kolby: So, it reminded me a little bit, you’d probably know Jeremy who said this, but there was some science fiction writer who said that a sufficiently technologically advanced civilization will always seem like magic.
Jeremy: Any sufficiently advanced technology will just seem like magic.
Kolby: Right. And I think that’s true in the sense of if you took someone from the 1400’s and showed them how a gun worked, like a modern gun worked, it would be like magic, or whatever the case may be right? That something goes from unimaginable to imaginable to possible to real. And I think that’s the thing that they’re talking about with these people… would they recognize each other because they’re so differently on the spectrum, would they recognize they’re still both human, and I think for me, it seemed like the, I’m just going to keep calling them the British because it’s easier for me to remember, It seems to me like the British or the ruddy apes, wouldn’t know they were the cannibals. That’s who they are as well. The cannibals, I think are sophisticated enough to understand that like, “Yeah, we may have been like them one day except for these other choices.”
Jeremy: They say that in the beginning. They both came from the same place. And they understand this and recognize their past but the ruddy apes don’t.
Ashley: So, the cannibals are so sophisticated, not only technologically, but mentally and emotionally.
Kolby: Even culturally it seems like.
Ashley: That they didn’t even blow up the ruddy apes, they were just like, “You need to leave.” They could have annihilated them, and they’re like, “Yo bro, just go. You’re not even worth my time. You’re so insignificant and…”
Kolby: They weren’t even worth the trouble to transport off the island. Because they had transporters like in Star Trek or something.
Jeremy: They can teleport them.
Kolby: They weren’t even worth teleporting off the island because it took energy. That’s how insignificant you were to me.
Jeremy: Just go.
Kolby: So, I’ll tell you one of the things I thought was really fascinating about this, Jeremy, you and I had talked about this a little bit, we try not to talk about the stories beforehand but we do anyway, and that is that the person being eaten, that the cannibal eats, the other human, chooses to be eaten, and so it is a voluntary thing, and so in that sense, it’s not an act of violence, it’s…
Jeremy: It’s a consensual act
Kolby: It’s a consensual act, and I think the thing that was interesting to me that had never occurred, literally never occurred to me until I’d read this, is, does that mean, that every other meat you eat, because it’s not conscious and it’s not consensual, is a violent act? Like, if I eat chicken…
Ashley: Ohhh, yeah.
Kolby: If I eat chicken, and because the chicken wasn’t like, “I’m cool with this.” I’ve committed a violent by eating chicken, or eating beef, or eating fish, or eating anything that was alive, and the only thing I really should be allowed to eat in a consensual way, is something that is sentient enough to understand and choose to be eaten.
Jeremy: I think a lot of vegans would agree with that.
Ashley: The problem is…
Kolby: But they wouldn’t be cannibals, that’s for sure. No vegan would be a cannibal.
Ashley: Is their options like, eat humans or eat plants? Literally? If they’re only consent, then yea. They’d be like, “I only eat human meat and that’s the only type of meat because they can give me consent.”
Kolby: And this is going to seem so stupid in some way, but that made so much sense to me when I read it and thought about it. It was like, “Yeah, I should probably be a vegetarian.”
Ashley: I’m going to take this to the real extreme. You keep talking about things that are alive and not alive… like, plants are alive. I’m just saying. A blueberry is alive when it’s on the tree. And it’s like, “Oh no, I’m going to kill you too.”
Kolby: I just read a thing a little while ago, that plants let out some sound…
Ashley: Yes, when they’re in pain! They do!
Kolby: But at some point, I got to eat something.
Ashley: Yeah, I know.
Kolby: I don’t know what a tofu looks like, but I’d eat it.
Jeremy: That’s still a plant.
Kolby: Oh, is it?
Ashley: So that brings us to our second question: the islanders are cannibals. They do so because they like the way human meat tastes. Is that a good enough reason to eat human meat? Is that a good enough reason to eat meat in general?
Kolby: Yes!
Jeremy: Meat in general, certainly.
Ashley: I’m going to be honest, when I was younger, I questioned why don’t we eat people. Like, I’m like, “We’re eating meat and then I learned muscle was meat, and I was like, why don’t we eat ourselves?” And people are like, “What?” I was a kid.
Kolby: I bet you never had that thought about dog.
(laughter)
Ashley: This is the thing…
Kolby: Because you’d never eat a dog because they’re adorable.
Ashley: How do you draw the line? We go chicken? Yes. Pig? Yes. Cow? Yes. Horse? No. There’s this…
Kolby: Dog, which is just as smart as pig. No. Cat? No.
Jeremy: Because they have a personality.
Kolby: Personality goes a long way.
Ashley: If you break it down to the most basic…
Kolby: It’s just calories.
Ashley: It’s muscle, it is just fibers, it is just meat. It’s muscle.
Jeremy: Yes, and that’s kind of their point in the end.
Kolby: So, are you okay with cannibalism? Did you just decide that? Did you convince yourself?
Jeremy: It’s called “long pig” when you eat it. It’s not called people.
Ashley: Really?
Kolby: Is that really? Did you research that?
(points to shirt)
Kolby: I was researching this.
(laughter)
Kolby: Did you research that, if you eat people it’s called long pig?
Jeremy: In some cultures.
Kolby: Really?
Ashley: So, I see it as a waste of meat. Okay, break it down now, you die, you decompose in the environment, your nutrients are released, they supply like a new plant which you end up eating that. Isn’t it like the water you drink has passed through 4 people before you actually drink it? Wasn’t it?
Kolby: The statistic was in California, the water from the mountain is drunk and peed and purified 7 times before it makes it to the ocean.
Ashley: Yes.
Kolby: Because they continually recycle the water.
Ashley: And someone has to. And at the end of the day, my matter is still here, it just gets transformed into a new thing.
Jeremy: So, in a homeopathic sense, we’re all cannibals.
Ashley: Yeah.
Kolby: Oh.
Ashley: Yeah, but in general, I, in a very simplistic realm, meat is meat. I get it. It’s not seen as appropriate to eat another human. I’m not saying I would, I’m not saying I’m promoting that.
Kolby: I’m not going to be on the raft with you.
Ashley: But in the… people have done that. Look at the Donner Family. Yes, we eat each other because meat is meat.
Kolby: You know that guy opened a restaurant later?
Ashley: Really?
Kolby: Yeah, one of the Donner guys that lived opened a restaurant and that’s how he retired. And it was like a novelty to go eat at the Donner restaurant.
Ashley: So, I’m just saying, when push comes to shove…
Kolby: Meat is just calories.
Ashley: … meat is just meat.
Kolby: Yeah, so would you say that the only reason we aren’t cannibals is because it’s just a sort of socially, social construct?
Ashley: That is the only reason.
Kolby: Hmmmm.
Jeremy: Because in our culture, you don’t want to be on the eaten end.
Kolby: You don’t want to be on the grandma end of that. I assume you eat old people.
Ashley: Oh my gosh.
Kolby: Well, nobody is going to have baby veal, that’s just mean. You gotta wait for the old people. I’m surprised you guys took that stance. I thought you guys would be more anti-cannibal.
Ashley: Don’t eat people? Why? Are you don’t eat people?
Kolby: No, I’m totally not. But here’s the thing, I’d eat everything. And it’s totally not acceptable, I don’t have… I like… we’ve talked about this, when I lived in China, I went to a restaurant that served dog and had dog soup. And I held out for like a year before I went. And at the end, the restaurant did perfectly fine business. And at the end of the year, I was like, “Look, it’s a cultural thing...”
Jeremy: Got to try it.
Kolby: “… I wouldn’t eat it in America. But I’m here, I’ll eat it.” And I will say, I was really revulsed by it. Just because that cultural sort of structure made me really struggle and it tasted like dog. The smell, like when you have a wet dog that’s been out in the rain. Imagine if that’s what food tasted like. It was not good.
Ashley: So, if that line between what animal you eat and what you don’t eat on the spectrum is moveable, that’s all I see it as. It’s like, another country they move a little bit farther, other countries they move it a little bit back.
Kolby: I’m good with everything from cockroaches to people, in my mind.
Ashley: Yeah.
Kolby: Maggots. Maggots to people, I’d be cool with. Protein man. Unless, unless, you go to the consent part. And if you believe that you can only eat that which can consents to be eaten…
Ashley: Then it’s only people.
Kolby: Then it’s only people, and it’s nothing else, and that makes perfect sense to me too.
Jeremy: But it’s a good case for the technology where we’re trying to grow meat on a lattice.
Kolby: I’d be fine with that. Actually, I was just a restaurant yesterday that had the Beyond Burgers or whatever they’re called.
Ashley: The fake burgers.
Jeremy: Yeah, they’re plant anyways.
Ashley: Chemicals.
Kolby: Yeah, plant with a bunch of chemicals in them. I’m not sure they’re good for the environment, but they’re not meat.
Jeremy: Or good for you.
Kolby: Yeah. They’re going to find out they cause cancer someday.
Ashley: So, if you, obviously you kind of sort of answered this, if you’re visiting the islanders….
Kolby: I love how you get us to the questions.
Ashley: Well, it’s a good segway point.
Jeremy: Because we’re not.
(Laughter)
Ashley: Because you’re like, “I would eat the dog.”
Kolby: I’m like, “Let’s talk here, let’s talk here, let’s talk over here.”
Ashley: If I was visiting the islanders, would I eat the human meat they gave you to eat? I would.
Kolby: Really? I would not have guessed that’s your answer based on our other podcasts.
Ashley: Well, it’s their culture.
Kolby: No, I’m totally cool with that.
Ashley: It’s their cultural thing, and how disrespectful would it be. They’re like, “This is our delicacy, this is our grandest human who just sacrificed for you.”
Jeremy: And by that rational you would, in another culture where they’re eating bugs, you would eat what they’re giving you.
Ashley: Yes.
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Kolby: No, I’m totally cool with that.
Ashley: It’s their cultural thing, and how disrespectful would it be. They’re like, “This is our delicacy, this is our grandest human who just sacrificed for you.”
Jeremy: And by that rational you would, in another culture where they’re eating bugs, you would eat what they’re giving you.
Ashley: Yes.
Kolby: But here’s the part where I thought you wouldn’t say that, because I thought we had some podcast…
Ashley: It also depends on how it’s presented.
Jeremy: There’s that.
(laughter)
Kolby: … But here’s the thing. This is why I thought you wouldn’t go that way. Number one: because I know there’s now way you’d ever eat dog, so if you went to this island with the cannibals but they weren’t cannibals, they were dog eaters, you’d be like, “No, I can’t eat dog.”
Ashley: If they gave me food, and I ate it, and I didn’t know what it was, I would eat it.
Kolby: Right, it takes like chicken.
Ashley: I would eat it.
Kolby: Really? You keep it eating it after you found out what it was, if it was okay?
Jeremy: If it was okay? Certainty.
Ashley: Yeah, I would not want to be disrespectful.
Kolby: I thought maybe you like dogs more than people.
Ashley: I had friends be like, “Here, you need to try this.” And I’m like, “What is it?” And they’re like, “We’ll tell you after you eat it.” And I’m like, “Okay.” And they’re like, “That was alligator.” And I’m like, “okay.”
Jeremy: It’s fine.
Kolby: The other reason I thought you wouldn’t fall in this category of being okay with this, is because I thought we had some discussion like 10 podcasts ago, it’s all blending together now, about prostitution or about something like that, that’s socially acceptable in other cultures and you were like, “No.”
Ashley: That was because I wanted them to be more, like, use their brains not their bodies.
Kolby: So, it wasn’t about the cultural issue…
Ashley: It was about women empowerment. Like, that’s the best, you use your physical attributes, you’re so much more than just your physical.
Kolby: There could be guy prostitutes.
Jeremy: It’s the same scenario.
Ashley: They could do so much more. It’s the same situation. No, I actually…
Kolby: That makes more sense to me in the way you’ve described it now than the way than I heard it the first time like 10 episodes ago.
Ashley: The cannibal’s logic and why they eat each other, it all makes sense to me. I’m not going to rebuttal their way of life. Now, do I want to start a revolution and get our society to change to be cannibals? No. That’s not my goal. That’s not what I want to see society change to be. But I understand their logic within this.
Jeremy: It’s an interesting discussion.
Kolby: Jeremy, you were okay with that? You’d eat the people meat too?
Jeremy: In that scenario, on the island that’s what they’re doing. Especially if they told you “This is the person. This is how we’re honoring them.”
Kolby: You’d eaten a little bit already and it tasted fine.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Kolby: Huh. Then why do you think that the British/ruddy apes…
Jeremy: It’s easy to say that.
Kolby: Yeah, fair. You know, I actually just wrote questions for a story that hasn’t been published yet, and one of the questions was “Is it fair for you to decide what’s right and wrong in this person’s situation, given that you’ve never been in this situation?” It’s the classic, and actually it’ll be in the book that’s coming out, it’s a classic questions of, “knock on the door, hide me from the Nazi’s, I’m a Jew.” And the person doesn’t. They turn them in. And one the questions is, “Was it right to turn them in or not?” And the next question is, “Do you have the right to judge someone else for a situation that you’ve never been in, and never had to deal with their thing?” So, we’re all saying we’d eat the humans, but when we’re there, we might bock.
Jeremy: Right.
Ashley: Yeah. And that’s, should we do anything to change or fix a society which we generally find immoral?
Kolby: You’re saying that’s a non-applicable questions to this one because you don’t find it immoral?
Ashley: I say go for it. I’m not protesting eating dog in China. I understand that’s their vibe, that’s their thing, cool, you go do that, I’m going to be over here. Or I’ll be over there…. But the only thing that starts to get me is when they’re over-fishing.
Kolby: Making something extinct.
Ashley: That’s where I’m like, “Whoa, hold your roll there. I get it, you’re okay with eating XYZ, but not if you’re at the detriment of killing off an entire like whale population.”
Kolby: What about the other thing that question talks about. The idea of… where is it again… is it okay to destroy… have an obligation to destroy something you find immoral? So, let’s assume, for the sake of argument, you find cannibalism to be immoral. It would be perhaps one of the most immoral things possible if you found it immoral. I don’t know what’s worse than cannibalism if you consider cannibalism bad. Do you then have an obligation to stomp that out? To destroy that civilization? To educate or die basically? If you find it immorality.
Ashley: This country has been living in their own little island, living their best life…
Kolby: You’ve got a lot to say about this story, don’t you?
Ashley: They are not impacting me. I would like to have a relationship with them. They got cool technology and stuff. But, if they’re that far advanced over me, there’s something they know that I don’t know. So how about we just discuss ideas and like you do you, you go eat your people.
Kolby: I’m going to ask you again, I’m going switch it up, because that’s an easy stance to take until you switch it up. So, let’s say that we find a bunch of heroin people that are like, “Look, I’m perfectly happy doing heroin. I’m going to die or whatever.” And we’re like, “Hey, your heroin addiction is affecting our society.” And they’re like, “Well, go put us some where it doesn’t.” And we’re like, “Oh, okay.” And so, we go stick them in Australia, and we’re like, “Hey go do heroin in Australia, you can have this island, assuming there’s no other people in Australia.”
Ashley: Okay.
Kolby: Or some like, you know, some spot.
Jeremy: Sure.
Kolby: Are you okay with being like, “Look, I think heroin’s terrible, I think you’re ruining your life, I think life is bad for you, I think you’re going to die a young age and have rotten teeth, but it’s not affecting me. Good luck with that.”
Ashley: You cannot make an addict not longer be an addict until they want to no longer be an addict.
Kolby: Wow, you’re starting to sound more and more like a libertarian.
Ashley: But it’s true though. You can bring a horse to water but you can’t make them drink until that horse wants to drink. It’s the same thing. Like, yeah, you can do interventions.
Kolby: You just shove it’s face in the water.
Ashley: You can do interventions, you can put them in therapy, but until they’re ready to change….
Kolby: Same thing with the cannibals.
Ashley: … same thing with smoking, same thing with cannibals, same thing with drugs, same thing with, I think, like you’ve got to want to change yourself, otherwise it doesn’t work.
Kolby: Jeremy?
Jeremy: I don’t know. This is an interesting conversation with the behavioral therapy conversation from the last story.
Kolby: Right! Because she didn’t want to change herself. They forced her change.
Ashley: Because she wouldn’t conform to society of not killing people.
Kolby: They were going to traumatize her in a war zone to change her behavior.
Jeremy: Yes.
Ashley: That’s the thing…. She’s going to be affecting other people though. If you put her with a whole bunch of other serial killers on an island toghter and they’re not going to touch me, or….
Jeremy: That is some reality TV right there.
(laughter)
Ashley: I am good with it. What’s the Hunger Games? They’re all trying to kill each other?
Kolby: Voluntary Hunger Games. I’ve always wanted to be a serial killer and now I’ve got the chance.
Ashley: Exactly. I’m like, ya know, as long as I will not be affected or….
Jeremy: Isn’t that the running man, basically criminals….
Kolby: I was thinking of that Japanese one where they’re all on the island. So, what do you think Jeremy, do you think you have an obligation to either modify or stomp out inherently grossly immoral behavior?
Jeremy: That is a big question. I personally don’t think that. But, in this particular scenario, but there are a lot of factors to it.
Kolby: Number 1, does it affect other people, like Ashley mentioned.
Jeremy: Right. And in this scenario, it’s very consensual. It affects other people, but…
Ashley: They’re consenting to it to begin with anyway. And it’s not affecting these British ruddy apes.
Kolby: They are literally an island onto themselves.
Ashley: Now (cough) pardon me. Say those people were living within the ruddy ape’s society, they just had their own part of town…
Kolby: That’s a different story in your mind.
Ashley: That’s a completely different situation. Again, how will their cannibalism affect the ruddy apes? Are they influencing the ruddy apes? Are they like “Hey, our kids look over the wall and they see what you’re doing and that makes our kids go crazy and we don’t want that?”
Kolby: And they become cannibals.
Ashley: Yeah. Then that becomes a whole different situation.
Kolby: That’s like the heroin addiction thing. So, if you can stick them all on a Pacific island, you’re good with that.
Ashley: Sure. Until they’re ready. I’d be like, “Yo, when you’re ready, let me know.”
Kolby: Yea, no, that’s fair. I’m going to go back to Jeremy soon because he gave us a cop out answer.
(laugher)
Ashley: Oh goodness.
Kolby: I feel like once an episode I ask you a question and you’re like, “It depends.”
Jeremy: It does depend.
Ashley: It always depends.
Kolby: So, let me go further along. What are the factors that it depends on?
Jeremy: Okay, does it affect other people.
Kolby: Sure.
Jeremy: Does it…
Ashley: Affect the environment? Like, are we all going to die of pollution?
Kolby: Like, if the ruddy apps burning coal.
Ashley: Yeah.
Kolby: That’s a problem.
Jeremy: That’s a problem, they should make them change.
Kolby: But if it’s something that doesn’t affect other people, that are non-consensual, that can be isolated, then all immoral behavior is acceptable and you have no obligation to it? As far as you can think of it right now.
Jeremy: Okay.
Kolby: I might come up with some example, unless you can think of one.
Jeremy: China for a long time, is harvesting organs from prisoners.
Kolby: I didn’t know that. That’s clever.
Jeremy: And selling them to Westerners.
Kolby: That’s the Chinese-iest thing I’ve ever heard.
Ashley: Wow.
Kolby: That is a communist country right there, man.
Jeremy: So? Do we have a moral obligation to make them change?
Kolby: No, but of course we might have a moral obligation not to buy those organs.
Ashley: Yeah.
Kolby: Okay.
Jeremy: Which would force the change, if nobody is buying.
Kolby: So, this is the thing I liked about this story, in that it creates the perfect scenario for exactly the thing you guys are talking about. Something that is, assuming you find it immoral, like the ruddy apes do, it is perfectly immortal. It’s the most perfectly immoral thing ever, but it is also the most perfectly contained immorality possible.
Jeremy: Right.
Ashley: So, let’s apply this to society here, so instead of putting people in jail or sending them to rehab, how about we, “This is the section where all the killers go”, this is the section… you parcel out an area where they just live. You’re getting sent to the new state Heroine-a.
(laughter)
Kolby: Heroine-a? That’s where the heroin users go?
Ashley: You’re getting sent to “I-want-to-kill-you-ville.” Like, you get sent to, “Can’t-stop-smoking-don’t-care-about-my-lungs-city”.
Kolby: “Lung-cancer-ville”
Ashley: And they just live in their little pockets until they’re ready to like… is that what we need? Is that something we need to look at instead of sending them to jail where they’re restricted of all their whatever. Be like, “Hey are you wanting to change?” First of all, “Are you wanting to change?”. If the answers no, then okay…
Kolby: We’ve got an island for you.
Ashley: We got an island for you.
Jeremy: You like to smoke weed, move to Denver
(laughter)
Kolby: We got a state for you. Yeah.
Ashley: Or would that create even worse environments because you’re putting people with the same thoughts and destructive behavior…
Kolby: The trend of course, it’s universalism and not separatism. The world is becoming, it’s language and currency and morals and values over the last 200-300 years are becoming more…
Jeremy: Homogeneous.
Kolby: …. homogenous, not more diverse because it’s just easier to travel and it’s easier to intermarry and it’s easier to gather information.
Ashley: So perfect situation, where will our lines fall because everyone’s able to travel? You traveled, you try dog, you’re tipping point changed a little bit compared to normal American society. So, as we continue to mix cultures and things get mooshed together, how will that tipping point change?
Kolby: I don’t know. I think…
Ashley: Do you think? I mean, we don’t have the extremes, not that I’m aware about, of any cannibalism society, but we do have with wishy-washy dietary what’s permissible and then as research shows, people turn vegan for health reasons. What’s the newest, there’s another, I’m sorry I keep referencing Netflix, there’s the Netflix show about the athletes’ when they take their blood serum after eating meat and there’s all this foamy thick serum where as if they have a plant-based diet, their plasma’s clear. I haven’t watched it yet, but I’ve heard it plenty of times. But again, health reasons people are making these dietary changes. So, it going to societies change? People intermixing? Is it going to be research based? Is it going to be something happens that, “Oh my gosh people are dying because of it?” “More people are getting cancer, now everyone has to change their diet?” It’d be interesting to see what’s going to force that change as we all become one. Like homogenous in our travels and what we find permissible and not. Look at the United States, before pot was illegal and now as society bends a little bit, okay now that’s permissible. How much more, and what way are we going to swing in other things?
Kolby: I’m looking at our questions, I wanted to tie this back a little bit. The last questions on our list is…
Ashley: Offer substitutions for cannibalism. So again…
Kolby: I think the conclusion is, we don’t have a substitute for the cannibalism that would make us change our minds. As long as it didn’t affect other people.
Jeremy: Correct.
Kolby: I think we’re all good libertarians is what I think. I’m really wracking my brain trying to come up with one and I can’t.
Ashley: I find it very honorable and great that people are like, “I want to save you.” I get it…
Jeremy: I think we could come back to pedophilia.
Kolby: Everything comes back to pedophilia. That’s like the trump card in the deck.
Jeremy: But that can’t be consensual.
Kolby: That’s true. That’s a great point. And that’s one of these things, I think they mention this is in the story, I think you can’t be eaten until you’re old enough to be eaten or something, right? You have to be a certain age, you can’t be a six-year-old being like, “I want to be eaten.” There’s some sort of age requirement, I assume, or something for that process.
Ashley: So, I guess if it involved children. And again, what’s the age of consent? They just bumped up the age of cigarettes now.
Kolby: It’s 21.
Ashley: And now it’s like, I’m okay to fight for my country at 18 but I can’t buy cigarettes until I’m 21?
Kolby: I think that would apply to all universally to all of this. So, if someone was like, “Hey, I want to move to cannibal island” And you’re like, “Look, you’re 9-years-old, you’re my kid, you don’t do that. You’re my kid, you’re my responsibility until you’re adult, you don’t get to choose your, what is it called, what were we saying, your immorality. You don’t get to choose your immorality until you’re an adult.” Which I agree with that too. But 21, I guess, is the age now if you want to start getting guns and playing Russian roulette. Russian Roulette island, that’s the island you go to. Because eventually there’d be just one person on the island. Think of how cheap housing would be. Okay. I think we’re at a good stopping point here.
Jeremy: Just going to go downhill from there.
Kolby: Going to go downhill from there.
Ashley: If you need us, we’ll be on Fear Factor next, we’ll eat anything you put in front of us that’s morally acceptable and gave us consent.
Kolby: You know, we’re going to Thailand soon, and I’m going to put some maggot whatever meal in front of you and…
Ashley: If it grosses me out, don’t care if it’s a vegetable that grosses me. It has to be presentable.
Jeremy: There are vegetables that gross people out.
Kolby: You just have to not know what it is, that’s all.
Ashley: And it has to look presentable, I will eat it.
Jeremy: And taste good.
Kolby: Okay, we’re going to take that to the test. So, we have completed another episode of After Dinner Conversation, short stories for long discussions, where we talk about stories, like Ruddy Apes and talk about, what’s the ethics and what’s the morality of this? It’s basically the trolley problem in short story form. If you’ve got a story you’d like to submit, you can do that on our website Afterdinnerconversation.com.
Ashley: You know what you should do? You should ask your friends, just point blank, starting off a conversation, “Would you eat another human?” And see what they say, give them this story, have them watch this podcast, share…
Kolby: That’d be so cool.
Ashley: Share on your Facebook or Instagram, be like, “I would eat people.”
Kolby: #Ieatpeople
Ashley: And then literally post the story, and the podcast…
Kolby: That would be amazing.
Ashley: That’s an attention grabber right there. See what people comment. See if anyone changed their mind.
Jeremy: Start posting recipes for long pig.
Kolby: You know what?
Ashley: See if they would change their mind? Check in with yourself, read the story, and then check your answer.
Kolby: So, I’m going to do this, after this podcast comes out, I’m going to look for the hashtag on Instagram and Twitter, and maybe Facebook, I don’t think Facebook allows you to do it do, and the hashtag is #ieatpeople. #ieatpeople. If you read this story and you want to discuss with your friends.
Ashley: That’s going to go a different way if you’re...
Kolby: And I’m curious if anyone hashtags that. I would totally be fascinated by that. If somebody hash tagged that. #ieatpeople.
(laughter)
Kolby: Submit stories, talk about the stories, recommend the podcast. Also, feel free to buy a shirt, although you can’t buy this one because we made this one special for Jeremy, but we got other ones.
Ashley: I mention it’s the nice cotton-poly blend, so it’s not the scratchy cotton, it’s the nice cotton.
Kolby: If you’re in Tempe Arizona, come visit La Gattara. Come check out the cats, support them. They actually, they’re up to 572 cats they’ve adopted out
(clapping)
Ashley: Kitties getting homes.
Kolby: Kitty getting homes. And keep listening, “like”, “subscribe” We like all that great stuff and we love doing this. Thank you for listening. Bye.